Pelops And His Ivory Shoulder

Pelops And His Ivory Shoulder
Pelops And His Ivory Shoulder

Pelops and his ivory shoulder

More Posts from Phaespxria and Others

1 year ago
Time Passes
Time Passes
Time Passes
Time Passes

time passes

9 months ago
So How 'bout Those Trailers. OMG.

So how 'bout those trailers. OMG.

1 year ago

wish the piraeus archaeological museum had a public catalog but hey everyone check out this c. 420-410 funerary stele from salamis with a tragic actor staring at his mask

Wish The Piraeus Archaeological Museum Had A Public Catalog But Hey Everyone Check Out This C. 420-410
5 months ago
I Found Another Rare Behind The Scenes One.

I found another rare behind the scenes one.

1 year ago

watch out for this vase with young-looking hot Menelaus holding Diomedes, to prevent him from killing Achilles (who murdered Thersites who was Diomedes' cousin)

Watch Out For This Vase With Young-looking Hot Menelaus Holding Diomedes, To Prevent Him From Killing

Meanwhile Agamemnon is depicted as older hot papa, very angry at Achilles like "kid, can you stop killing people and work on your anger issues???" - not like Mycenaean daddy could join him for the anger stuff...

Watch Out For This Vase With Young-looking Hot Menelaus Holding Diomedes, To Prevent Him From Killing

and Phoenix like "not this angry kid killing people again" and Achilles giving zero f 🍆cks.

Watch Out For This Vase With Young-looking Hot Menelaus Holding Diomedes, To Prevent Him From Killing
4 months ago

hey remember that absolutely gut wrenching part in the iliad when hector is running for his life from achilles, totally out of sorts, completely outmatched, thinking he’s been abandoned by Troy and everyone he loves, until he sees his brother, deiphobos—his dearest brother, the only person who showed up to fight by his side—and feels so much relief because he doesn’t have to face achilles alone—and thanks him for being the only one in Troy stand beside him? and so hector goes to achilles with new courage, hurls a spear at him, misses, is so discouraged, but nonetheless turns to his brother to ask for a new one because so long as deiphobos is there, there’s hope. but he’s gone. and hector, as he stands facing the death that has been destined for him since before he was born, has this moment of realization that no one ever came to help him. no one is standing beside him, and deiphobos is still behind the Trojan wall watching hector die alone like everyone else. what he saw was just Athena’s cruel trick to get him killed.

yeah, so, that makes me cry.

5 months ago
Πέμπτη Μεσοῦντος/ Πέμπτη ἐπὶ δέκα / Πεντεκαιδεκάτη, XV Day

Πέμπτη Μεσοῦντος/ Πέμπτη ἐπὶ δέκα / Πεντεκαιδεκάτη, XV day From today’s sunset: fifteenth day of Maimakterion. The fifteenth of the month is always sacred to Athena. “Shun the fifth days: i.e. the lunar days. Shun all the fifth days.” (A woman- Cassandra?- embraces the statue of Athena; from Tanagra, 400 BC–323 BC, Besques-Mollard, Simone 1950 Tanagra. Braun & Co., Paris, France. (5-9)

1 year ago

There's been some amount of academic discussion about Paris' two names - usually in terms of which is earlier and where they come from and what epithets are used with which name. (Most of his epithets "belong" only to Alexander, if you're curious.) But, a small branch of it is "who uses what name, in-story, in the Iliad" ; Ann Suter (this woman, uhh her ideas are pretty crazy so approach with awareness of that), I.F. de Jong and, commenting on especially the latter's article, Michael Lloyd.

I lean more towards Lloyd's assessment that de Jong's premise (that "Paris" is between the Trojans and "Alexander" for the Achaeans as a sort of 'international' name) can't really be supported. But! That doesn't mean you still can't have fun with the split in names and get something in terms of character and worldbuilding out of that!

So, first of all, in the Iliad, "Alexander" is used far more than "Paris". Only Hektor ever uses "Paris" in direct speech, about or to him (we'll get back to Hektor).

Everyone else, Achaean or Trojan, uses Alexander.

Both Suter and de Jong would, in various ways, either ignore this or explain it away as a "this only happens when the Trojans are talking to Achaeans" (Hektor, before the duel), or "what is said is going to be said to Achaeans" (Priam, telling Idaeus what to report to the Achaean commanders). Honestly, that seems overly complicated and not very reasonable to me. Especially in the case of Priam, if Paris was the name he's most used to using, there is no reason for him not to use Paris and then Idaeus simply switches when reporting the speech to the Achaeans. Yes, reported speech/instructions are usually relayed verbatim, but switching a name wouldn't be changing what's actually been said.

And, anyway, coming back to Hektor, who is the one to most consistently use Paris? Also uses Alexander, when thinking to himself, in his own head. (He also uses Paris to Achilles.)

Myth-wise, in various later sources you get the very logical conclusion of "one name was given by his foster father, the other by his royal parents". (Though there's not necessarily any consistency, even with one writer, which name was given by whom.)

Given the way the Iliad prioritises Alexander, I'd go with that Alexander is the name Priam and Hecuba gave their son, even if he was going to be exposed, before giving him away. Given how Alexander is used by basically everyone to address him, this would make good sense, I think. The Achaeans would only know of Alexander, prince of Troy, and that is certainly the name most/all Trojans would use. Paris is then the name given him by his foster father. Hektor using it can be turned into a look into their relationship, because what you see is Hektor using the name of the "outsider" (by a bare technically "not" his brother), to insult his brother, when he's angry. A verbal distance to add to the emotional one, if not one that's complete and sometimes blurs.

(This doesn't take into account post-Iliad sources, where 'Paris' vastly outnumber the uses of 'Alexander'.)

1 year ago
Reunion.

reunion.

some sketch I drew in March;)

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